BEN HOGAN'S 3-PART SWING
The arena of blogging... I guess it's my turn to start one!
The real reason I wanted to start this blog is to stay in touch with my students and guests to my website. It gives me that avenue to answer questions and interact with comments that are circling around in the golf world.
I recently was asked by a gentleman named Steve from the UK (because it remains a niggle to him, I love that word) about Ben Hogan's lateral slide in the downswing and what my thoughts were on the subject. I thought it was a great question and decided it would start my blog.
Ben Hogan never did slide in the downswing, period. He slid before the downswing.
You might say, "Huh?"
You see Hogan had a 3-part swing. He had a backswing, a set, and then the downswing. The "set" was his positioning of the hips before the downswing started.
Let me back up a little.
Why would Ben Hogan slide to set his hips? Didn't he say we should "spin the hips" and the faster the better? Yes, but because of his bus accident, he (not everyone else) had to make an adjustment. Hogan advocated minimal lateral motion for the golf swing but couldn't do it himself, because of the pain it created in his left side. He set up with a little more weight on his right side at address, and on the backswing would load against the right leg.
Stay with me now.
As he was still making his move back the lower body would start moving toward the target to position the base of his spine just in front of the ball. (this is the set) Why? Because the base of your spine is the bottom of your arc and in a proper golf swing you connect with the ball just before the bottom and on a typical iron shot a divot would follow. It is a timing move and Hogan found it needed constant practice to perfect, and if he took off even one day of practice he would lose his edge. He felt it unnecessary for most golfers and tried to emphasize the proper motion of the spin with little lateral movement whenever asked. But most people just wanted to watch him swing and not listen to his words. That's why he told John Schlee not to copy his swing, and in Hogan's own words said, "Why would anyone want to swing like a cripple."
Once he positioned his torso just ahead of the ball, he tried to spin his hips as fast as he could.
Load - Position - Spin
So there you have it. Ben Hogan's 3-part swing. If you didn't know it or understand it, now you do!
Later, Tom B.
is it the same move that some golfers use to shift weight to the right leg then back to the left, i have used it with some success.
when i think of his name i will send it in, he is a teacher, got it Jimmy Ballard, he teaches this lateral move
thank you FJ
Reply to this
Yes, to an extent this is what Jimmy Ballard teaches. Although Ballard's emphasis is putting your weight on the right side and not against the inside of the right foot like Hogan. this allowed him to retain the angle of the right leg on the backswing.
Ballard's old saying was "swing like you were going up against a wall" aka Curtis Strange, Hal Sutton. When they were on they were on, but when they were off they were really bad.
Remember, the more lateral weight shift you have, the harder it is to time your swing in the hitting area.
Reply to this
You are so right about the difference between Hogan and Ballard. I have reurned to Hogan's book after realizing that i had never really read it properly. He is fantastic! The best ever, and nearly everyone has stolen from him, often without acknowledgement
Reply to this
So during the backswing you shouldn't shift your weight? Maybe even increase the weight on the target foot, to get the bottom of the arc in front of the ball?
Reply to this
You need to shift your weight. Unfortunately many people get in trouble when it comes to that. The bottom of the arc is where our spine is. So on the backswing it moves back laterally, but as little as possible. Shift your weight to the inside of the right foot. This will keep the lateral movement to a minimum. Then on the downswing because of the rotation of the hips, the spine moves back in front of the ball.
Reply to this
I had read some of John Schlee's writings about 25 years ago and thought them to be very interesting. That is until I talked to a few people that knew Mr Schlee personally. I found that when questioned about Mr Schlee's book, Ben Hogan said, "He's a nut". Now, I don't mean to disparage John Schlee, but upon reading the account of his life in the Tom Bertrand book, I began to wonder if John was possibly suffering from schizophrenia. If you saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind" with Russell Crowe, you'll understand what I'm getting at. Was there anyone else that witnessed these meetings between John and Ben Hogan? Does Hogan's secretary have a recollection or a record of John meeting with Hogan to discuss Hogan's endorsing his book?
Again, I don't mean anything disparaging about John Schlee other than the fact that he may have been suffering from an undiagnosed illness.
Reply to this
I had spent about 7-8 years with John personally and professionally, and do not recall any symptoms of schizophrenia. Yes, he was a different sort and you either loved him or hated him. He also either loved you or hated you. And yes there were many people who witnessed John spending time with Mr. Hogan. He even sent John a telegram when he won the Hawaiian Open in '73.
Reply to this
Hi Tom,
I am a 2-year golfer and, like many, a fanatic of Ben Hogan's swing. I have read 5 Lessons, Power Golf, Slicefixer's "encyclopedia" and your book. I have read a lot of other materials, but I honestly think the former are right on it.
I think the backswing is what I am doing incorrectly, so my question is re this. Hogan mentioned in 5 Lessons (and you quoted it also in your book) that you should keep your upper right arm as tight as possible to the chest. Also, Hogan said in 5-L that the right elbow hardly moves in the first half of backswing. What is your take on this? I think it is one of those "missing links" also. This move will make sure the arms are kept as close as possible during the takeaway/backswing, but for me it feels restrictive. Is this consistent with Hogan's swing and your book?
Another question, re the downswing, do you consciously keep your right wrist hinged/cocked from the top of backswing to right after impact. You said in your book (in the impact zone discussion) that the right wrist remains cocked right after impact. Do you make an effort to keep it hinged/cocked? So your thought in the downswing is to do this, and then just make a hip/torso turn?
And lastly, in the impact zone, you avoid the clubhead from being open (due to the right wrist hinging/cocking) by turning your elbow, which you said in your Youtube clip is the same as what others (Slicefixer for one) is advocating--that is to connect the upper left arm and chest during the swing especially right before impact. I feel that the right wrist hinging/cocking and left elbow turning are going against or fighting against each other. So should you not intentionally keep the right wrist hing/cock to let the left elbow turn? Please help/advise. Sorry for the questions/novel, if I am on that part of the US I will do directly to you for a lesson!
Cheers!
Reply to this
The upper right arm is close to the body in the set-up due to the elbows being as close together as possible. I also agree with Hogan in that the right elbow doesn't fold until the shoulders turn the arms and hands just past the right knee. (Phase 1 of the backswing in my book) It will feel restrictive until you have the move mastered. You must do it over and over again until it becomes comfortable. It will trust me. You want to think of it as making your swing more compact, taking the unnecessary slack out it.
On the downswing if you turn the right hand toward the ground the hinge in the back of the right wrist will automatically stay there until after impact when centrifugal force takes over. So your thought is to turn the torso keep the arms together and turn the right hand to the ground in a wiping motion.
The right wrist hinge and the left elbow turning do not go against each other. If in slow motion you turn the left elbow toward the left hip you will feel a better ability to turn the right palm to the ground. Also, the left elbow turn is the action that creates the left arm reaction closer to the chest in the downswing. Be sure you understand what the actions and reactions in the golf swing.
Later,
Tom Bertrand
Reply to this
i have been reading about BEN HOGAN since the late 80's and the information in the secret of hogan's swlng is the best information outside of Ben's book,s at least to me.
Reply to this
Thanks, I really hope people see my work as a compliment to Ben Hogan's Five Lessons. I want people to understand better, the information he gave to us 50 years ago.
Tom B.
Reply to this
Hogan, my favorite golfer. Someone told me years ago, he when he'd practice at Seminole, in Florida. He'd have his caddy stand out a distance, and Hogan would hit balls to him. The caddy would bend to his left or right and pick the balls up. Did you know him then? Your name is very familar. But I haven't played the game in years. My memory is not so good anymore.
I saw your name on CreateSpace and it led me here to you. Nice site, you have.
Reply to this
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to meet Mr Hogan, but because of John Schlee, Ben Hogan seems to me to be the grandfather I never knew. John would tell me stories as a father would tell a son, about the father he deeply admired. Ben didn't have a son and John didn't have a son. Their lineage was passed on to me. I am honored to pass on their thoughts about the golf swing.
Reply to this
Tom we here at http://PlayOnGolf.com are big fans of your teachings. The podcast we did together is being received well. I look forward to working with you in person to develop the swing action as Hogan did it.
Reply to this
Jim McLean talked about Hogan's slide and I have looked at a lot of video's of his swing and he has a huge slide. Your saying Hogan felt it was not necessary. All pro's make that big move to the left which allows them to hit down on the ball. Amateurs can't shift enough and end up hitting behind the ball. That's the reason the Stack and Tilt is getting popular since it helps you get in front of that ball. I for one cannot get enough weight over just by rotating my hips as you describe in your book. I have to make some slide and even then can't get enough weight over. After watching Hogan's swing I have been shifting laterally during the back swing, like Hogan, then just turn on my downswing and find it does get my weight over my left foot. I take divots in front of the ball like I should and seem to do better that just turning my hips. I recently bought V.J. Trilo's book since he advocates the same thing. Setting your weight over to the left side during the downswing. Now that your set on that side you can just turn your hips as Hogan said to do. After reading his book I find it wasn't that difficult to do and there seems to be less timing since your already set before starting your downswing. I think when you mentioned the impact address in your video and basically hitting from that position aren't you basically doing what Hogan was doing. Which is getting into his impact position during his back swing.
Reply to this
If you read my blog here on the 3-part swing, I interpret the slide as a "set" before he starts his downswing. I read VJ's book and he has another opinion where he believes the move forward with the hips and the legs is part of his backswing. No big deal. If you really want to use the proper turning point mechanics check out Maximum Golf with John Schlee and the "impact address" system. It minimizes the lateral motion from side to side to virtually zero. Turn back and turn through. When I was with John and we taught this, people thought we were crazy. But the more people realize that Hogan wanted only to "turn" through the hitting and not slide through it the more consistent people will become with their ball striking. When you slide - somedays you're on and most days you're not.
Reply to this
Seems like I need some lateral movement to the left also before I can move my left knee and left hip "level left". How do I keep the slide to a minimum going forward???
Reply to this
You need to set up with more weight on the left foot than on the right foot. This puts you're "turning point" (base of the spine) closer to the left heel. Once you are set up, start your backswing without sliding to the right. This will then allow you to initiate the downswing with a turn and not a slide to the left.
Reply to this
Tom, I have really enjoyed some of your web postings and youtube videos. They have accelerated my ball striking improvements considerably. There is an aspect of Hogan's swing that has remained a puzzle to me however. One reoccuring theme is how Hogan would "bow" the left wrist towards impact and you address this in one of your video postings but in order to do this it almost seems like Ben would have to take his left hand a bit off the grip. Does this happen in his left hand somewhat like many people do on their trailing hand like a Vijay or Mickelson or does the hand remain fixed to the grip? Thanks.
Reply to this
I'm happy you're ball striking has improved. Be consistent and you will continue to improve.
To address your question, you really have to understand how the club first sits in the left hand. Remember it is mostly in the fingers and not in the palm part of the hand. John Schlee would always say, "Make sure you roll the grip in the fingers of your left hand."
So you would take it out to the middle of the fingers and roll the grip toward the palm, then adjust the face of the club. This gives you a more secure feeling of the left hand on the club. With that secure feeling, when you are traveling through the impact zone, the hand can remain on the handle of the club all the way to the finish.
Also, Hogan rotated his left wrist to create the bow through the hitting area, and this contiuous movement secured the left hand properly. So no, I have never seen his left hand come off the club nor have I heard anyone say he had to have it come off the club slightly to create that bow. It's all in the wrist movement. Hope this helps.
Reply to this
Thanks Tom, your comment on the left wrist surely answered my question. In addition to this I have another dilemma. In five lessons Hogan describes the setup as a sitting posture like you would do with one of those "spectator sports sticks". This part I understand but it seems like he lowers even further in his backswing so as his hips move downward and backward as well as a drop of the head. He never mentions this in his book. Just wondered what your thoughts are on this.
Thanks.
Reply to this
The lowering of the trunk of the body was more pronounced in the earlier days of golf when the set-up positon was much more upright. Hogan was no different. In order to stay loaded through the hitting area for as long as possible, he had to flex more going through the hitting area. It's also noticeable with Tiger Woods, especially on the driver. As the years went on Ben Hogan felt this move was unnecessary and inconsistent.
Hogan had John Schlee flex more from the start (set-up) creating a feeling of taking the club back at one altitude and returning to the ball at the same altitude. No Up or down motion. Hogan felt this should hold true for all golfers. Nowadays you do not see so much difference from set-up to finish.
Reply to this
Enjoyed the "One on One with Tom" at Pala Mesa Resort there in San Diego last week. I sure learned a ton of "take-away's" to implement in my swing. Here we are swinging side by side: http://www.playongolf.com/gm_hd.html
Reply to this
I knew someone who knew Ben Hogan well. I am a big fan of Mr. Hogan. He was a little cranky though! It seems like after the 1966 Open at Olympic, Mr. Hogan was having dinner. Johnny Miller was the low amateur there. After the last round, Miller came up tp Mr. Hogan at the table and intorduced himself saying he was low amateur. Mr. Hogan looked up from his dinner and said"cant you see I'm eating my soup". Good story! Anyhow, Mr. Hogan had a great swing. If he could only putt!!!
Reply to this
I can see that you are an expert in this field! I am launching a website soon, and this information is very useful for me. Thanks for all your help and wishing you all the success in your business.
Reply to this
Tom, I'm new to your blog, and just finished reading your book, which I found very interesting! My question deals with your "palm up to palm down, wiping at impact." In 5 lessons, Mr Hogan describes the right arm as "similar to the one an infielder makes when he throws...." (page 98). Further, he describes the hands as "..it is the old two-handed basketball pass..." (page 100). Is your move Palm Up to Palm Down, the same as what Mr. Hogan described? What are the differences, if any, and what are the affects of the different moves? Thanks, I've been a Hogan fan for many years.
Reply to this
The two handed basketball pass is an outdated picture of the movement, so to speak, but for those of us who can still see it, the arms move in unison. The infielder throw is very accurate because of the side arm action and the right elbow leading the throw. In the golf swing we want to have unity with the arms and the right elbow leading. Taking it one step further we have the hands and there motion. Hogan didn't detail their movement at the time, but it is the "feeling" of the right palm turning toward the ground. You never quite get there but it's the feeling you are looking for. The more you get that feeling the more the clubface goes through the hitting area properly and creates solid shots.
Hope this helps.
TB
Reply to this
Have you ever thought of adding video to your blog to keep the visitors entertained?
Reply to this
Will do soon.
TB
Reply to this
Tom! I am admirer of Mr. Hogan and have been trying to swing in his style and having read your book and the 5 L. I think I am hitting well according to my friends. The problem is that I live in Germany and there are not trainers who teach Hogan. When you consult them, they try to teach you something else and this irritates me because I feel that I am not understood. My question is: " Is it possible that I send you a small video to look at and advise me?"
Reply to this
I know what you are going through. Before I met Mr. Schlee who showed me all what Mr. Hogan handed down to him, I was lost and everyone seemed to have an idea of what Ben Hogan was about. But then they would teach something different.
Check my website and see what appeals to you and we can work something out.
thesecretofhogansswing.com
Tom Bertrand
Reply to this
Thanks for the 411 Mr. Bertrand. You are now my only read on golf. One question please. Bobby Jones advised that at the start of the downswing, the right wrist should relax to allow the clubhead to move back and behind a tad. Whats up? Is this old school or is this still useful advise in the steel shaft era? Tx John
Reply to this
Hi John,
Thanks for the question. Yes it is still useful today. John Schlee constantly made sure his students had relaxed grips and supple wrists. Hogan told him that good hand action required limp wrists so-to-speak. So be aware that you can not put a death grip on the club and allow for your wrists to be hinge-like so when you travel through the hitting area you allow the lag to happen naturally before centrifugal force catches up to the wrists and hands.
Good Luck,
Tom Bertrand
Reply to this